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tragiktimes101 2 months ago

Do you support Antifa? If so, why? Are they negatively portrayed in the media? Do you consider their ideologies extreme? They state they are anti-fascists, but their tactics are that of fascists. Is this an ends justify the means situation? Some branches of Antifa have begun calling for violence against certain groups and individuals. Should they be designated a domestic terror group?

Comments Sorted by:

Nullarc77 4 Builds 12 points 2 months ago

If Obi-Wan were to talk to Antifa it would go something like this.

Obi-Wan: You have become the very thing you swore to destroy.

gorkti200 3 Builds 5 points 2 months ago

Do you support Antifa?

No

Are they negatively portrayed in the media?

Yes

Do you consider their ideologies extreme?

Yes

They state they are anti-fascists, but their tactics are that of fascists. Is this an ends justify the means situation?

That probably is how they would explain it if they took up that argument. But I don't think they would agree with the preceding assertion, and I don't think I agree with it either.

Some branches of Antifa have begun calling for violence against certain groups and individuals. Should they be designated a domestic terror group?

Probably yeah.

None of these questions actually asked anything about fascists, despite the title.

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 2 points 2 months ago

None of these questions actually asked anything about fascists, despite the title.

I alluded to fascism when asserting their tactics are that of fascists. But, you're right in that I didn't really give them their own light in this topic.

tomtomj2 9 Builds 5 points 2 months ago

They’re on the same boat as anti-vaxxers and flat eathers: morons.

At this point we’ll kill each other over anything it seems.

tiny_voices 4 Builds 3 points 2 months ago

They’re on the same boat as anti-vaxxers and flat eathers: morons.

Yes.

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 2 points 2 months ago

I disagree.

Let's fight to the death!

tomtomj2 9 Builds 4 points 2 months ago

Good, twice the pride, double the fall!

VapidDarkness 3 points 2 months ago

I need more time to reply to all of your threads man.

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 5 points 2 months ago

Lol, sorry. Had a few ideas this morning. Too much coffee, I'm sure.

VapidDarkness 3 points 2 months ago

They are some good ones though.

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 3 points 2 months ago

Thank you. Hopefully we'll get some good discussion.

InsertNameHere² 3 Builds 2 points 2 months ago

Antifa is incredibly stupid and hypocritical in their extremist views, they should be considered a terrorist group.

MichelWeber 2 points 2 months ago

I do not support them. People who believe in a cause should not be hiding their faces if they truly think they are doing the right thing. It is a very big red flag to hide your face. It indicates you are trying to hide your identity for some preconceived reason.

To call for violence is asking for trouble.

OvoFox11 2 points 2 months ago

Being willing to use violence isn't fascism. Deplatforming speakers isn't fascism. Hiding your face from people who want to hurt you isn't fascism. Punching a Nazi in the face isn't fascism.

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 1 point 2 months ago
  1. The fascist negations (anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism);
  2. Nationalist authoritarian goals of creating a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture;
  3. A political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence and promotion of masculinity, youth and charismatic leadership.

These are the most commonly agreed upon defining features of fascism.


Being willing to use violence isn't fascism.

Having a positive view of violence is a feature of fascism.

A political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence and promotion of masculinity, youth and charismatic leadership.


Punching a Nazi in the face isn't fascism.

No. Being "anti-nazi" is a feature of fascism though.

The fascist negations (anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism);


Deplatforming speakers isn't fascism.

If you are deplatforming those because you are opposed to or "anti" their movement or views it is.

The fascist negations (anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism)

Nationalist authoritarian goals of creating a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture;


Hiding your face from people who want to hurt you isn't fascism.

No, that's called cowardice. And, it should be shamed.


Lowkey, are you antifa? Or, are you just asserting that they aren't fascists? Do you support them?

gorkti200 3 Builds 2 points 2 months ago

Lowkey, are you antifa?

Someone disagrees with your (wrong) definition of fascism: must be antifa. And you had the audacity to say that I said something low, lol.

You are completely misreading the idea of the "fascist negations": it isn't that being "anti" anything at all is a quality of fascism. Otherwise literally every person who exists is a dabbling in fascism by your misreading of this definition. It is an explicit list of being anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism. Others would include other prevailing notions/ideologies in that list, but it is a part of defining fascism that includes being anti-those other ideologies. One that is NOT a part of that list, and never would be by the definition of fascism... is being anti-fascist. I mean that should be inherently obvious and I shouldn't have to even say it.

This notion that antifa 'are the real fascists', because they are violent and opposed to fascism, is absurd on its face(it's also an effective smokescreen for nazis). That is not what defines a fascist, that's what defines someone who is violently opposed to fascism. A great big important part of your definition of fascism that you left off is authoritarianism, strict control of social groups, isolationist/protectionist economic policy, and nationalism; especially on that last point, a preponderance for ethno-nationalism.

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 1 point 2 months ago

Someone disagrees with your (wrong) definition of fascism: must be antifa. And you had the audacity to say that I said something low, lol.

It's not a wrong definition of fascism. It's the characteristics that are nearly universally attributed to it by political theorists and historians. Now, I'll grant you that it was a contrived way of putting it, but I don't think that concept is super foreign to you either.

You are completely misreading the idea of the "fascist negations": it isn't that being "anti" anything at all is a quality of fascism.

No, it's being anti modern ideals and political theory. It's being anti conservative. It's being anti liberal. It's being anti democracy. It's being anti-individualism. The tenants which fascists are opposed to is far reaching. But, it is seen by some as a product of populism, just like communism. And like all populism, relies on variations of group identity.

Otherwise literally every person who exists is a dabbling in fascism by your misreading of this definition.

Not even in the least. Having one characteristic of something does not meet the definitions criteria. One aspect is nationalism. But, being nationalist doesn't mean you are flirting with fascism. It means you've met one of the criteria.

It is an explicit list of being anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism.

No, it is not explicit and inclusive only to those ideals. An evaluation of the Nazi "God-Father" of philosophy by Jacob Golomb and Robert Wistrich states:

There is much that is disturbingly antiegalitarian and antidemocratic in Nietzsche, and his writings on Jews are open to differing interpretations. Yet his emphasis on individualism and contempt for German nationalism and anti-Semitism put him at stark odds with Nazi ideology.

This shows that one potential tenant of fascism is anti-egalitarianism as well as anti-democracy. Further, being that he was at odds with Nazi doctrines against individualism, nationalism, and racism it shows that it is a complex and nuanced set of defining characteristics which may not be universally applicable when making such determinations. Both were fascists, both being able to be defined differently.

One that is NOT a part of that list, and never would be by the definition of fascism... is being anti-fascist.

"Anti-fascits" is merely a name. And, a name does not preclude them from themselves being fascists. They are anti-fascists but I would love to hear them define fascism, even loosely. If I call a group "anti-racsits" and then proceed to act in extremely racists ways, does that preclude me from being a racist because, I mean come on, our name is anti-racists? Of course not.

This notion that antifa 'are the real fascists', because they are violent and opposed to fascism, is absurd on its face(it's also an effective smokescreen for nazis).

The 'real fascists'? Who said that? They are fascists but what are real fascists? Those that meet the aforementioned criteria. Many groups can be fascists, antifa being one of them.

(it's also an effective smokescreen for nazis).

Okay dude.

That is not what defines a fascist, that's what defines someone who is violently opposed to fascism.

What is? Being opposed to fascism? How does that necessitate violence? I think you're reading more into this than has been argued.

A great big important part of your definition of fascism that you left off is authoritarianism,

It isn't left off. Antifa have been calling for speech laws (a push towards authoritarianism) and the forceful quelling of opposition (another authoritarian attribute).

strict control of social groups

They are strictly controlling social groups in their movement. If you oppose anything they believe in, you become the enemy. I've seen it numerous time that those of an identify they are 'supporting' are attacked when their opinions dissent the majority. The quell anyone that doesn't conform to their thoughts. What is that other than strict control?

isolationist/protectionist economic policy,

That is not one of the more agreed upon defining characteristics, and not one that was in the list I quoted. What is more agreed upon is:

"goals of creating a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture"

A main goal of Antifa, as described by Mother Jone's Wes Enzinna is:

They're dedicated to the idea that fascists and white supremacists and neo-Nazis don't respond to legal mechanisms and that you can't rely on legislative efforts or police to prevent them from recruiting and organizing. And as one member told in a documentary called "The Invisible Revolution," he said racism is an idea, but fascism is an idea mixed with action. It took fascism to establish Jim Crow and, before that, slavery. Anti-Semitism has been around a long time. But it took fascism to make the Holocaust. When you cross that threshold, you negate your rights to a calm, collective conversation. And that sort of is indicative of the general approach of the antifa movement.

Now, are they to the point of economic restructuring? Well, they've been extremely vocal against capitalism so I'd say so, yeah. They just have yet to garner the support to institute those reforms in the US. Are they trying to modify social relations within a modern and self determined culture? Yeah, they are doing that.

and nationalism; especially on that last point, a preponderance for ethno-nationalism.

According to Roger Griffen you'd be right. But that trait requirement isn't shared by his contemporaries including Umberto Eco and Robert Paxton. In fact, according to one of the leading influencers of Fascism, Charles Maurras called for a form of nationalism which called for the "organic unity" of the nation. Something that Antifa seems to support.

So, how does it not fit the criteria for fascism again?

Also, sorry for the wait, I literally had to type this up in its entirety again after a power outage at my work.

OvoFox11 1 point 2 months ago

Having a positive view of violence is a feature of fascism.

Anti-fascists don't have a positive view of violence, but they are willing to use it against people whose end goal is literally genocide. Also, the American Revolution was violent. Does that make the founding fathers fascist?

Being "anti-nazi" is a feature of fascism though.

lol

If you are deplatforming those because you are opposed to or "anti" their movement or views it is.

Are you suggesting that being against an idea makes you a fascist? Or that speaking out against people like Richard Spencer makes you a free speech hater? What's going on here?

No, that's called cowardice. And, it should be shamed.

also lol

Lowkey, are you antifa? Or, are you just asserting that they aren't fascists? Do you support them?

It annoys me when people compare a loose, unorganized group of protesters to fascists.

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 1 point 2 months ago

Anti-fascists don't have a positive view of violence, but they are willing to use it against people whose end goal is literally genocide.

If it's such a loose association as you speak, how can you defend the entirety with such confidence? That would be what we call a double standard; claim it's loose and can't be judged as a whole in some regard but claim it can be judged as a whole in another. Double standard.

Being "anti-nazi" is a feature of fascism though.


lol

Nice defense. Too bad it is one of the agreed upon characteristics of fascism.

Are you suggesting that being against an idea makes you a fascist?

Those are not my suggestions. They are the assertions made by a multitude of political theorists and historians. It's one of the agreed upon characteristics. If you disagree, that's fine, but you are not disagreeing with me, but a well-established definition.

Or that speaking out against people like Richard Spencer makes you a free speech hater?

Speaking out? Nope, not at all. Preventing from speaking? That's not a feature of fascism, but of ******** that are undermining another's rights, which subjects them to penalties of law.

It annoys me when people compare a loose, unorganized group of protesters to fascists.

Well, it annoys me when a group meets all the defining characteristics of something yet people defend it by associating one of those characteristics with another group as if that defends the original group. It does not and it doesn't stop them from meeting all of the defining characteristics.

OvoFox11 0 points 2 months ago

Nice defense.

Remember, this is the internet, not debate club. The assertion that fascism is "anti-nazi" is ridiculous and unhinged. It's not my job to take ideas like that seriously. One final point: You say that deplatforming is "undermining another's rights." People are certainly entitled to whatever hurtful ideas they may hold. They do not have the right to a megaphone to spread those ideas around.

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 1 point 2 months ago

Remember, this is the internet, not debate club.

That is a terrific way to try to dismiss an argument without addressing it, right?

The assertion that fascism is "anti-nazi" is ridiculous and unhinged.

That...wasn't my claim at all. But, way to show off those reading comprehension skills.

They do not have the right to a megaphone to spread those ideas around.

I'm assuming you mean in a public place. So, why? Can you defend why that isn't protected under the constitution?

Lee79 1 point 2 months ago

Yes they should be considered a domestic terror group. I don't care if they scream I love Bernie and Orange man bad until they lose their voice. But when you start torching cars and threatening violence, we have a different kind of problem.

Zeromus725 1 point 2 months ago

Do you even think Antifa fights real fascists? I’ve never seen it happen. However, I have seen violence, theft, and property damage. These are all criminal offenses so my opinion of the group is not high.

Bartholemew 1 point 2 months ago

The only people I've seen them fight are free speech rallies.

Zeromus725 1 point 2 months ago

Pretty much.

Levyrat 2 Builds 1 point 2 months ago

I don't think you can characterize a group as fascist based on tactics. You have to look at goals.

It's kind of like characterizing someone as violent because they employ violence as a tactic. I'd classify an armed robber as a violent person, but I wouldn't classify the cop who shoots him the same way.

gorkti200 3 Builds 1 point 2 months ago

I don't think you can characterize a group as fascist based on tactics. You have to look at goals.

Yeah I haven't really touched on this subject much since I was drawn into the other big one, but I think you made an excellent point here. It's like saying America/the UK was fascist because they were fighting the fascists in WWII. Like saying there is no difference between killing an intruder to defend your family, or being the intruder looking to kill at random.

HydraBT 1 point 2 months ago

Yes

[comment deleted]
tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 1 point 2 months ago

Agreed.

I really think they are what EMOs evolved into.

gorkti200 3 Builds 3 points 2 months ago

I mean they both wear a lot of black...?

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 0 points 2 months ago

Now you're seeing it, lol.

gorkti200 3 Builds 3 points 2 months ago

But where do goths fit into this picture? And catholic priests?

tomtomj2 9 Builds 3 points 2 months ago

Darth Sideous wears black, and so do Nuns, and business men, and... oh **** does that mean Nuns are SITH LORDS? BY GEORGE!!!

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 1 point 2 months ago

Goths? Proto-emos. Catholic priests? We don't talk about those people.

JCMsergox 4 Builds 2 points 2 months ago

Excuse you.

tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 1 point 2 months ago

Lol

[comment deleted]
tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 1 point 2 months ago

Being "emo" or "scene" was about what sort of music you listened to and what clothes you wore.

As another former emo, I have to disagree with this. Being emo or scene was not just about what clothes you liked or what music you cared for. It was wrapped up straight in ideology and mindset.

Now, I have no strong evidence to support my thought that they evolved into Antifa (at least some of them). It's just an inkling. Maybe it would be more apropos to specify that I think it's what the whiny emos turned into.

[comment deleted]
tragiktimes101 submitter 1 Build 1 point 2 months ago

NE Missouri. Where emos regularly cut themselves, cried a lot, and told everyone they were dumb RAWR!

TIL emo != emo sometimes.